Optimization – that’s the name of the game. And we’re all looking for that next big strategy to focus on, in order to maximize our time and resources.
However, identifying the most important 20% to focus on in order to achieve an 80% result is no walk in the park. You might try getting some customer feedback, or tweaking your product and checkout pages. But in many cases, retailers may focus their effort on the wrong initiatives which will never deliver more than a 20% result.
Today I’m speaking with Erik Christiansen, the co-founder and CEO of Justuno. The entire Justuno product suite is completely focused on optimizing the most important 20% to help tighten up the conversion funnel and drive more sales.
On the call Erik also shares secrets on how to mimic the traditional in-store retail experience that shoppers are now expecting online to further improve conversion rates.
eCommerce Optimization Ideas to Grow Your Bottom Line
[28:45] – 3 insider tips to grow your email list fast…
Links mentioned in this interview
Read the Transcript
Daniel: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of eCommThinkTank. My name is Daniel Kohn. Thanks for joining us, and today we’re going to be talking with Erik Christiansen, who is the co-founder and CEO of a very cool conversion optimization platform. The e-commerce company is called JustUno. I actually came across JustUno a couple of years ago, and I’ve been following their website iterations and their featured set iterations and the growth of their company as I was doing some research just for this interview.
I read on a site that they now have over 27,000 e-commerce stores and websites actually using their platform. So there’s a very good reason why. Today, I brought Erik on the show to talk a little bit more about what they do around conversion optimization and to look at some inside tips and tricks on what to focus on and how to do some of these savvier optimization strategies for your e-commerce business. So, Erik, welcome to the show.
Erik: Thank you, thank you.
Daniel: Yeah. It’s really nice to have you. Maybe let’s start off by giving us a quick overview of what is JustUno, how did it get started, and what you guys are doing at the moment through the platform.
Erik: Yeah. Well, JustUno got started with Travis and I. From 2005 to ’10, we were building our own e-commerce platform for an online snowboard business, and we ended up building it to 20 million in sales. When that business was sold in 2010, we wanted to figure out what to do next. We ended up focusing on JustUno, obviously, but the problem that plagued us throughout our experience running Sierra Snowboard, which was dealing with coupons and cart abandonment and sales conversion and driving traffic to the site.
So, where we are today, five years later, is a complete conversion optimization platform built specifically for retailers to focus on two key components: one, lead capture for all the websites that are driving traffic but need a way to convert it either into an email capture or social follow, and then another second component, which is most important, which is sales. So we help them focus in that area as well.
Daniel: Right. It's actually interesting, when I first came across you guys, I saw one of your widgets and it's powered by JustUno. As a digital marketer, I click on that and take a look and check you out, and then I started seeing more sites with it. And then I noticed in Shopify app store and all the app stores, "JustUno, JustUno," and I was like, "Wow! These guys are really onto something over here."
But what I noticed is that back then, it seemed to be more around, like you said, the couponing element, but it was more focused maybe around social media and connecting socially. And today, when I was researching the site again, before the call, it looked like you really evolved to what you said, as this conversion optimization platform.
I was just wondering, maybe that's the...you guys have been successfully following the evolution of where the industry is at in terms of...back then it could have been more about "Hey, we just want to get likes and we want to be doing social media" kind of activities. Whereas today, I think, retailers are really looking at "How can we better leverage what we already have because the land grab might be over already?" So do you feel that you guys have evolved from that, or am I kind of making all this up in my head?
Erik: You've put a smile on my face because you actually recognized the evolution of everything. When we launched JustUno in December of 2010, you could not mention the word coupon to an online retailer. They would be like, "Oh! Why would I give them a coupon? They're on my website. I don't want to lose margin. I'm already going to convert them. Why would I do that?"
And so, when we originally launched, we were a coupon publishing platform, mainly because what we knew is that 58% of our visitors, in 2009, were leaving our website to search "Sierra Snowboard coupon code," you know, coupon hunting. And when they would do that, they had a sales conversion rate of 8% to 11%. So we recognized like, "Oh, wow! Wait, something is happening here." So what I ended up doing was ranking up a page on our own site for SEO above Retail Me Not, because, to me, affiliate marketing and fees, they're just stealing from the inefficiencies of a marketplace.
They're stealing margins from retailers, and so it's like we want to educate retailers to understand what their website visitors are doing and try to convince them to invest in their visitors, invest that extra 10% in that customer and you're going to create a much better experience for them. They're not going to have to leave your website. And nine times out of ten, those codes don't work on those websites. And you're going to have to pay an affiliate fee. So, why not engage in investing in that visitor today and you're going to see a lift in sales conversion and a happier customer? So, the customer experience in sales.
So you mentioned social. Our first year, no one wanted to talk about coupons. But people were talking about getting Facebook likes. So that's when we put in the gating functionality of "Hey, what if you could get a Facebook like for that coupon?" And the retailer's like "Yes, yes, I need Facebook likes." So it's like, marketers, they're saying, "Our CEO only cares about how many likes we can get." Now, keep in mind...
Daniel: This is exactly like a parallel voice that I heard when I was consulting years ago to another company. They said the exact same thing, like, "We'll give away margin for likes on Facebook." Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. It's just funny like...
Erik: You know what the funniest part is, is that I was half-considering taking like four different marketing jobs and just going and buying Facebook likes, and you'd look like a rock star in your company because "Oh, my God, you're able to add thousands and thousands of Facebook likes." But little did anyone in the company know you could just go buy them [inaudible 00:07:28].
Daniel: And today, that CEO is saying "Oh, we don't need likes anymore. We need to be profitable."
Erik: Yeah. That's what's nice about this current resurgence in the market, is that it's based more around...the focus is on sales. E-commerce is growing at 20% a year. It still needs seven or eight percent of the global retail market. What's so great about it is, it's so efficient. You can run a business on very little these days, and so people are looking at their resources and saying "What can we do with our current resources to increase sales and our marketing efforts and our strategies?" And that's where everyone's talking about the 80-20 rule, as you do yourself. It's almost more 90-10.
The fact that you look at people's marketing budgets and they're spending all this money to drive traffic, and then you ask them "What are you doing once that traffic is there?" and they're not clear what to do. They're like, "Oh, I did my job. I drove the traffic. It's now sales' job." So, moving through the social, we're now getting into email marketing as we've seen a great resurgence in email marketing. It had a few down years there, but I'm not sure if you've seen how successful email marketing can be still today.
So we're seeing a big growth in email capture. And then the second area is, now that the major retailers of the world are openly sharing coupon codes in the upper right hand corner of their website or across the top or are now using popups and overlays...smaller retailers, it's okay in the market today to use the word coupon or discount. But now the question is, how do you engage and where do you engage with those visitors to share a message about a promotion or an incentive to check out or join the email list?
Daniel: I also think it's, with the coupons, how to get the right coupon visible to the right person, because a lot of companies we deal with and talk to for what we do, and it is around email actually. They don't want to be giving 10% off to a guy who's got $30 in his basket and his margins are really tight. So I guess one of the things around when we talk about conversion optimization and working with tools like yours, is also trying to get the coupon in front of the right person and away from the wrong people so it actually doesn't kill your margins and the business model that a retailer has.
Erik: So it's all about getting creative, right?
Erik: And what's amazing about today is, platforms like Bigcommerce and Shopify, they've made it so easy to launch an online store. So you have these brick and mortar retailers that maybe traditionally don't have any technology background in digital marketing or anything like that, overnight they can launch an online store. Without having all that digital marketing experience, they can be partially successful. So it's our job to educate them and teach them how to be more successful. And so what I like to do is try to take out the technology aspect and talk more about retailing.
Because that's what's in our DNA in our company, is we train and talk with our entire team of like "Hey, look, we've been retailers, and let me tell you the reality of retailing. It's brutal, it's hard, and you're in the trenches." So let's try to let them think of their online stores as just an extension of their brick and mortar, how do you run your brick and mortar, and you retail.
So when someone walks in the store, you greet them. Here in the U.S., every retail runs off the holidays. So it's Valentine's Day coming up, and you walk into any grocery store, any CVS or Walgreens, isle three is covered in Valentine's candies, bears, you name it; the entire thing is red.
That's where we like to talk with our retailers and educate them "Hey, look, you have Valentine's coming up. Why don't we engage with your visitors with a beautiful Valentine's promotion?" So we're talking and educating them through "It's not a coupon, it's a promotion, and it's what's the seasonal holiday." And what's great about today in lot of the digital marketing tools is that, like with JustUno, you can build that Valentine's promotion. Which we have all pre-built one, so it's like one click and they can have them.
They don't have to change their entire website, which takes a lot of resources. Even a change, one thing on a website, it can be daunting for you to go through. You have to get the designer to do it, then you have to get the dev [SP] to push it, and then you have to test it on browsers. Now you have to test it on mobile and responsive.
Daniel: It's a whole thing.
Erik: Yeah. So in terms of coupons, like you mentioned, it's not just coupons, it's engaging with them in a creative way that makes sense and sticks to the principles of retailing.
Daniel: Right. I like that. Just coming back to before you mentioned the 90-10 rule, one of the things I like about what you guys offer through the platform is the fact that I think you're really leveraging a big chunk of that 90%. Which, like you said, is around email list growth, and doing it in a creative way as opposed to really annoying people with annoying popups that just kind of kill the experience. One of the experiences that I've had, just talking to retailers and just being in the space, is there's still...the word popup is a pretty nasty word still and it still has that sort of connotation to spam, thanks to those popup tools in the early days of internet marketing.
Maybe you could tell us how you guys are using them, because you're using them not just on the entry but also on the exit. Are there specific ways to use them around how many times you display them? Or are you displaying them to specific types of users or on specific types of devices to actually really pinpoint the right people as well and make sure that the user experience is actually a good experience as opposed to just annoying them with old-school popups that sort of piss people off? Excuse my French.
Erik: It's funny, around the office, I mean, account management, they want to use the word overlay. Sales wants to use popup because, guess what? Popup is still the universal tool.
Daniel: Right. It's the word that everyone knows, yeah.
Erik: Funny enough, we tried steering away from it, and we've actually steered back to it because people can relate to it and they know what it is. So now that they know what it is, how do we educate and help them feel comfortable using it, right? Just as we dealt with coupons in 2010, we're now dealing with popup.
There's two ways to break it apart to help disseminate and make it easy. First, let's look at new visitors. So you have just paid 75 cents to $15 for a click from a Google adword. This person has some interest in your brand, and now they've gone far enough to click that link and land on your page. Right now, what's happening is, they're landing on your page, they have the highest bounce rate out of any segment of your visitors. So now they leave, but you have a cookie on them and so the only way you can reach that customer again is through re-targeting through a company like AdRoll [SP].
So, once again, you have to pay to get that user back. So that user has landed, left anonymously, and you have to pay to get him back. So, you double spend. What we're saying is, a very successful way to us a popup is when that adword visitor lands on your site, present a giveaway just like Isle Surfboard did where it's "Hey! Win a standup paddleboard. Please provide your email." That right there is a creative way to really engage with a visitor that has shown intent.
When those visitors that do join that email list, you've taken the anonymity out of them and they have an above-average open rate from those emails. So we're talking 30% to 50% open rate from a first-time email capture visitor. We love doing that.
So then you have the second segment that is an audience that you care most about because it's a repeat visitor. It's someone that has been to your site before, they may have shopped, they may be coming back, you may have driven them in through an email campaign. What we like to say is, "Let's focus on top of the funnel. And on the number one page you should focus on today is your cart page."
You don't have to show anything throughout the entire process, but as soon as a visitor is on the cart page and has added an item, we recommend you either do one of two things, either auto-present a popup or let them continue their shopping process. And if they intend to leave, mouse up to open a new tab or just close, then you can present them with an offer. And that way, it's the most unobtrusive way to present a popup on your website, and most effective.
Daniel: Right. We call the checkout the "final mile." Sorry, before I say what I was gonna say, the other benefit of all this as well really is that you're actually not just trying to keep them on the site but you're actually growing your email list at the same time, right? If you're trying to encourage them to put in their email address, that's part of the popup, right?
Erik: Yeah. Where we're evolving to today, for me as a retailer...and keep in mind, we used JustUno on JustUno ourself. If you look at what we're doing right now, is when someone is on the upgrade page, we now present the coupon right off the bat. We don't lock it. We don't require an email because we care more at that point in a sale versus capturing a lead.
Daniel: I see what you're saying. So on the checkout, it's probably more beneficial to not try and grab an email address because you're just trying to keep them on and push them through that final mile to finish off the sale.
Erik: Correct. But you can get creative. You can say, "Here's a five percent off code. Please check out today. But if you'd like an additional 5% for 10% off, please provide us with your email."
Daniel: Very nice. Okay, cool. I think that's a really good tip. Like, earlier on in the funnel is where if they're going to be exiting your site, that's where you're okay to capture an email address because it's much earlier on in the pace, it's less purchase intent, and let's try and go for that. But at the money end of town, let's try and keep them focused on just pushing them through to the end.
And in terms of how these popups perform on the exit of a checkout page, what are some...obviously, it varies from site to site, that the type of coupon or the type of incentive that you're motivating them to take up on, to keep them there, is going to affect the performance. Are there some rough numbers that you could share with us around what those popups do to keep people on the site in terms of percentages, or how do you...?
Erik: We love doing case studies, and what's great is, whenever your product interacts with website visitors, the website owners see instant ROI. Especially when email is captured, they can see all their emails growing. So it's a lot of fun for us to get feedback from customers that are having success. Hot Dog Collars, Todd Handler, he saw a 67% increase in his sales conversion, and he didn't believe it. So, what he did is he turned JustUno off, and when he did, immediately his sales conversion went down.
So he turned it back on and it's been on since. As retailers ourselves, we watch our website on a daily basis. Wake up in the morning, first thing we check are our sales, like, "Do I need to increase my promotions?" Along with we watch our inventory. We pay for our inventory from storing it, from [inaudible 00:22:51] 30 payments, everything. We have to flush and move our inventory. And that's where the other area of pushing people to sales sections of their websites.
So to answer the question further, the true way to answer that is through AB testing. Try a 10% offer for half of your traffic and try a $10 offer for the remainder of your traffic. The other is, the number one reason people don't checkout is shipping. So if you don't offer flat-free shipping...if someone's cart value is under a certain amount, you can set that variable in very easily. Say, if they have under $75 in their cart, offer them an additional shipping savings. Which, mind you, is a great way around retailers that have their hands tied by vendors, because a lot of dealer contracts say you can't discount their product below to a certain amount.
So that's a great way around that. So in terms of sales conversion, we have a great case study with Todd, with a 67% lift. And then with email capture, we have that Isle Surfboard case study, along with many others, and they saw an 800% increase in their email capture.
Daniel: Wow! Maybe you send me the link after the call, and I'll publish it in the post.
Erik: Cool, yeah. That one, we worked with a digital marketing agency that was helping drive all the adwords traffic. It's all about just capturing [inaudible 00:24:41] to drive all that traffic. What are you doing to engage with them?
Daniel: So just talking a little bit more about the actual offer itself. You mentioned free shipping. When we talk about percentage off or dollar off, is there usually, across the board, one versus the other that works better, or is it really just a matter of AB testing and it's just different for every type of product category and every type of customer for each store?
Erik: In today's world, it's really different for all different industries and different...in the SaaS world, everyone has different plans. So it's hard to do like...you can't just say $20 off because it won't relate to the different tiers. The number one tip that I can provide today, which will save retailers a lot of margin and increase their sales the best, and this is done by Steven and Jake from 10DollarMall.
They are retailing geniuses. What they do is, they do a really big number up front. So they'll say 40% off your first item, a single item. So you can get this big number up front, but it's only one item versus your entire cart. That is a great retailing little tip right there. The other is another Steven from [inaudible 00:26:31]. He's another old school retailer that's super savvy and understands his business really well. So, what he does is, he drives traffic to his sales section. So he can lead with "75% off. Click here," and it drives them to his onesies [SP] and twosies [SP].
Daniel: Right. I was just going to ask you, just for the context of what you're saying, you mean they're putting that in the behavioral overlay, the popup, on his site, right? Is that what you're talking about?
Erik: Yeah. That's the promotion that they're running.
Daniel: Those are some great ideas. Once we worked with a daily deal company. And their margins are so slim they can't really offer any discounts, so what we did was we sort of had some lingo that...it basically said something to the effect of "Join the newsletter and get up to..." and we put in a really high percentage discount off selected items when you join the list. And we put the percentage in really big numbers because most people don't read everything properly all the time. And we weren't really offering anything, but it worked really well when they had nothing to play with at all and they couldn't really offer any type of incentive.
They're already offering free shipping on everything anyway. But we kind of felt that that also worked where we put a big number out there, but it was really just reflecting what the discounts were actually on the site at that point in time. So I think that's kind of what you were just saying as well. It's just about being creative and trying to really figure out how to make it sound big without losing your pants at the same time.
Erik: Email capture isn't anything new. What is new is putting smarter logic and creativity behind it. The newsletter bar at the bottom or the footer of your website, it's been there forever, but it's just been static. As soon as you take the static out of it and make it smart and then add in some more creative to it, now you're going to see a bump.
And then as soon as you add an incentive, you're going to see that next level because it's human nature, that incentives work. And then building upon the copy and the language. People have been trained to join an email list and then they have to wait and get an email. So if you talk about the customer experience and the purchasing path, what we're big into is using the word "instant."
So if you go to 10DollarMall right now, you see "Join our newsletter, instantly get 20% off any item." And as soon as they add their email, they then get the code presented right away. On top of that, you can send them an email with the same message. So, essentially, you can kind of double tap them. So using that word, "instantly," really helps. It's funny you mention, people are willing just to provide their email.
It's like people can enjoy getting...if they like your brand, they don't mind. They are interested. That's the key thing, is that anyone on your website, you have to keep in mind, is no different than someone that has walked into your store. They've made a point to "come see what you're about," and they're going to continue to engage with businesses that engage with them and treat them like a real person. Do you remember the company, Wildfire?
Daniel: Yeah, Wildfire. What happened to those guys?
Erik: They got acquired by Google. Was it Facebook or Google? Google.
Daniel: Wildfire. I remember that.
Erik: So, that company, it just so annoyed me because what they did - and this ties into what we're talking about, is how do you get someone to join your email list or whatever - they focused on one thing, and it was iPad giveaways. It was iPad giveaways on Facebook. And that gets into if you're going to host a giveaway on your own website...
Daniel: Oh, yeah. I remember that. Sorry.
Erik: So there's a fraud component about [inaudible 00:31:42].
Daniel: Yeah, I remember these guys.
Erik: But going back to helping retailers with giveaways and contests on their own website, is focus on maybe giving something away that isn't your own product that you sell on your website because you have to be careful about anyone that might have purchase intent for that item to not purchase that day because they might win it. That isn't always the case, so it's just something to keep in mind. So if it's something that relates to your industry or your product, or if you have a friend that owns another retail store, you can do some cross marketing. Anyhow, so it's just a little thing.
The Wildfire [inaudible 00:32:23], what they did, is they were [inaudible 00:32:25] with Facebook. So all they would do is they would sell a marketer on "Hey! If you want to join your Facebook fan list, host an iPad giveaway," and then paid and marketed on Facebook. So for years, you would see all these ads like "Win an iPad. Like us." And so you ended up having a bunch of people that don't care about your brand because they're liking you offsite, somewhere on Facebook. But Facebook loved them because they were spending money on ads on Facebook. So, it was like, in the end...
Daniel: It's like inside baseball. There were just helping each other out. They weren't really thinking about the consumer.
Erik: Yeah. So, at the end of the day, guess who lost out? The poor retailer, right?
Erik: The person who's fighting for three to five percent margin just got taken by these big companies. So let's fight for the retailer.
Daniel: I just wanted to throw in one other idea off the back of what you were just talking about before. If you own an e-commerce business or you're in e-commerce marketing and you're thinking about doing this type of stuff, one of the things you also got to remember is, we're talking about capturing an email address in relation to giving away an incentive.
The other thing that you really need to remember is, as you grow that list, what you're then able to do is, when you send out your regular newsletter, the engagement rate and the open rate, at least from what we've seen, and the click through rate and the conversion rates on those new people being added to your list, is always going to be much greater than your current list of people who have probably already been on your list for a while and may be kind of fatigued.
So the other benefit of capturing these users who are on your site already and you're really just leveraging what's already there, is that you're going to hopefully make more sales on the back-end through your email list as well. So when you're thinking about offering these incentives, the additional upside is also on the back-end of your regular newsletter sending. We've actually found, in some cases, the increase in sales just from those extra names added, I know you know this, is worth so much more than what you're actually giving away. And it's such a powerful way to really re-engage your email list and to grow your list successfully.
So it's just really another consideration when looking at this sort of area of your website to optimize, and tools to layer into your website. So I just wanted to add that. Erik, I just have one more thing I wanted to ask you. I'm actually on 10DollarMall, and it's a really good example. I'll publish this link as well at the bottom of the post for everyone who's listening.
But the last thing I wanted to find out as well is, you mentioned the design and the wording, which element is more important, or they go hand-in-hand when doing this type of marketing and advertising on your site? Is it more about having a really good design, or is it more about having the right words and the right numbers in terms of the incentive to make these campaigns work? Or is it both?
Erik: No, no. It is talking about the popup. Popups from four years ago were this bland, boring little "join our email." They weren't exciting. So it's all about creating a cohesive brand experience. [inaudible 00:36:30 to 00:36:33].
Daniel: Wait. Erik? I'm just getting a buzzing. You're there?
Daniel: Just getting a really weird buzz. Maybe just talk again for a sec.
Erik: I am talking with...
Daniel: That's better. Sorry, maybe just backtrack a little bit. I'll just edit that out.
Erik: Okay, cool. Regarding 10DollarMall, what you're seeing here is a new-age popup, and it's one that isn't as maybe, say, annoying as what people were used to, say, three, four, or five years ago, which was a very boring...it was just an ugly popup. So what you can do now, what marketers can do is build a whole cohesive brand experience that maybe doesn't necessarily look so much like a popup but some sort of like...it's an overlap. It's something that fits with the website. You almost expect it to be there. It's like a welcoming.
Also, if you're building ad creatives for all your re-targeting or your display ads, you can carry that experience over to that segment so that...they just clicked a visual ad. When they land on your site, match it up and build that bridge over to your site. Just like a landing page, the popup, you have so much control now.
It's almost like a new landing page. So with that control, you can also get into the AB testing to see what works more. We did see a big lift in...we have a popup on the tabs on the right side, and if you do a creative tab like the guys from [inaudible 00:38:32], they do animated gifts - so, really fun, catchy, creative things - you instantly see a spike.
So you don't have to popup a popup. You can just present a tab on the left that allows the user...when they're ready, they can click it. Just last night, when we were emailing, we were still debugging at midnight, and we were launching our own Uno bar, which is just a simple message you can put across globally on your site, that type of engagement type things.
And building upon what you were saying with investing in your visitors, incentivizing them to join your email list, it's January 27, 2016 right now, everyone has taken a breather from the holiday season; retailers are looking to what technologies they are going to invest in this year, what segments to invest in. And with their email list, think about if you start capturing more emails today, the compounded interest you're going to get come next November.
If your email list is 300%, 500%, 800% bigger than it is today, your holiday sales at the end of the year are going to be that much bigger with your email marketing strategy because you've been investing in those visitors. With email, we're talking with a lot of retailers, and what hasn't been mentioned is Amazon.
Amazon is a double-edged sword for retailers because it's a great way to boost sales in the short term, but the problem with Amazon that every retailer knows is, Amazon owns that customer. You do not get an email address. You do not get anything. Yeah, in your box that you ship in, you can put a little note like "Hey! Come back to our site. Here's our URL." I ordered some beard oil and they had a little note [inaudible 00:40:51]. So I actually went to their site to check it out.
So, what retailers are saying is, to be long-term sustainable, we need to focus on our current customers on our website. That's the conversation we want to really push into 2016, is "Hey, what can I do to invest in my current visitors and grow that? Let's focus in on our core and focus on growing that by 10% or 20%." First is trying to drive in 80% or 90% of traffic that doesn't care.
Daniel: It's very interesting, actually, to hear you talk because you've obviously got a bigger picture perspective of where the e-commerce and retail online space is heading. It seems like, as a platform, you guys have really evolved with that bigger picture evolution as well. So I'm sure if we speak again in another year or two...just like the gambling industry moves towards the gaming industry, as they had to evolve, popups have now become behavior overlays.
I'm sure you guys will have figured out the next big question that a lot of digital marketers are really asking. And I'm sure you guys are going to be delivering that solution because you've got a really clear idea and understanding of the bigger picture. So it's really interesting to hear you talk about it.
I wanted to thank you for joining us today. It was a really interesting conversation, and hopefully everybody listening will also pick up a couple of ideas and tips on how to actually use a tool like JustUno and use these popups and how to grow their email list or...what do we call them? Behavior overlays? It's just funny because I have the same thing when I'm talking to companies. The last word I want to use is a popup and I have a whole explanation of how it's evolved and how we will help them evolve from that perspective of using them. Yeah, thanks so much, Erik, for joining us. It was a really good conversation.
Erik: Yeah, Daniel. Thanks for having me. Free any time.
Daniel: Yeah. Let's be in touch. Nice to speak with you.
Erik: Okay, cool, man.
Daniel: Thanks, Erik. Take care.